The nail that stands out [Archive]

Kustom

08-12-2005, 05:10 PM

I just came back from Ginza where I had a drink with a couple of Japanese good friends and got into an argument, as well as drunk which only made things worse. It's something that comes back often when I speak with Japanese people, and I just wonder what to think about it... (This is kind of philosophical so you might pass if you're not into that sort of things.)

Our disagreement was about weither one could change Japanese society and how. Like many Japanese people, they believe that nobody can change the way society works, and that it's best to wait and see until change happens. For them change is a slow, natural process that will happen eventually. Japanese people love to quote the old saying "the nail that stands out will quickly be hammered down". So the individual who tries something different is a fool that will accomplish nothing. Japanese have no mercy for people who take initiatives if they fail - if you try and fall, they'll finish you off...

So even though my friends agree with almost every issues I have with Japan and acknowledge the need for change, they simply refuse to do anything about it other than silently disapprove.

To give you an example, one girl I know was the victim of sexual harassment as an intern. No matter how much I insisted, she refused to report it, even after she finished the internship and even though she didn't want to work in that company anyway (so she didn't care about consequences). Her idea was that since it was over, it was best to forget about it. I told her that if she didn't do anything, other interns might go through the same thing or worse, but she just didn't care. On the other hand, another friend of mine who was victim of sekuhara was braver and reported it. She got fired, and most of her friends didn't understand her.

Everybody admits that this kind of crime is bad - but not as bad as making a fuss about it.

Now I, for one, don't believe that any change can happen if everybody sits on his ass and does nothing, or worse, do their best to discourage others to take initiatives. It seems to me that every change that happened in Japan (wars, Meiji era, martial arts, democracy, you name it) was brought in by outside forces or a few strong-minded individualistic figures, like shoguns or the emperor. I don't see this slow, peaceful change anywhere...

But my points were completely lost on my friends. It pisses me off when I meet educated, open-minded Japanese who sincerely think that they can just wait and one day, everything will get better without them doing anything about it...

I blame a lot of things on this passive attitude, but my friends say it's just an arrogant western thought that one can introduce change by himself.
Then they give me the usual you-are-not-from-here-so-you-can't-possibly-understand shrug. I get this so much here that I'm actually confused about what is really right or wrong now. Things I thought were aberrations of nature before, like sticking your fingers up random people's asses or listening to J-pop, no longer seem so unthinkable...

So what do you guys reckon, is it really possible that things can be changing in Japan in a slow, non-conflictual way, or are they just covering up for their passiveness by pretending there's nothing they can do?

(Sorry for the long post, and thanks for reading it)

hapacheese

08-12-2005, 05:34 PM

Well, it almost is impossible. I've been trying my damndest to make changes at my current company, but I've all but given up. They love their meetings too much. Everyone sits around and argues, but in the end, nothing gets decided on. Like you said, nobody wants to be "the nail that sticks out." Because if it doesn't go right, you *will* get smacked down.

If you try and change things too much or are too insistent, you will be viewed as a gaijin who does not understand the Japanese way and will be systematically ignored.

X the Eliminator

08-12-2005, 05:35 PM

I don't think they're pretending that they can't do anything, nor do I think change comes passively.

The Japanese culture appears (I've never been there so I can't say for sure) to value uniformity and tranquility above all else. Whereas American culture promotes individualistic risk takers who blaze new ground.

A Japanese person has the same capacity to be as much of an individualistic risk taker promoting change an American does. But two things will hamper them:

1 - They are taught as kids to not take risks or push for changes.
2 - It is harder for them to find other adults who will help them push aggressively for change.

So it's more of a difference in taught cultural values than an excuse to do nothing about problems. They have been taught to not make waves and this retards reform.

Edit - If you're a Gaijin, you won't be able to do anything about it. It's up to those native Japanese who want to be risk takers and push for reform. It seems to be pretty rare from what I'm hearing, but I'm sure there have to be some.

Kustom

08-12-2005, 06:00 PM

If you're a Gaijin, you won't be able to do anything about it. It's up to those native Japanese who want to be risk takers and push for reform. It seems to be pretty rare from what I'm hearing, but I'm sure there have to be some.

Well that's exactly what bothers me... I know I can't do anything about it, but my Japanese friends who are
1) young
2) educated
3) lived in the West for years
4) understand the need for change

still won't ever take those risks...

So if they don't who will? What's worse, they actually look down on people who do (and there are some, but very few...)

Of course it comes from the education they received and Japanese culture in general... However the way they rationalize this is strange for me - they think that change will happen on its own and that's why they shouldn't rush things. But it doesn't look as if anything ever changes that way to me...

silentplummet

08-12-2005, 06:18 PM

The Japanese seem to fear social change above all else.

Knowing this, are we so surprised that they rationalize away their responsibility to promote it?

akitaka

08-12-2005, 06:24 PM

1 - They are taught as kids to not take risks or push for changes.
My mother is a native Japanese and incredibly passive; throughout my childhood, I was told that spontaneouty and straight-forwardness was a big no. In fact a few nights ago a skater kid shoplifted and the second I was about to take off to take him (the clerk was fat/slow), I set the groceries down and had one glance at her face. She really didn't want me to do anything. And later on the drive home I was continuously nagged on the wheel about "family plans first" and "safety" and all that junk. That whole night was a huge dissapointment.

And I can't get enough of how scared she is of me working. The whole "family this" and "family that" gem gets old, real fast. Because of this I haven't gone out with friends in like...8 months. Wow. I could live on a mountain and not complain, huh.

But what scares me even more is how similar I'm getting to my cousin in Nagano, who's 28, and still living with my aunt, who has to take care of my grandmother. He wanted to be a doctor, and f'n crammed like no tomorrow; it's said that he lost a lot of weight. Well it turns out that he's so busy taking care of the family, that he can't pursue his own career/life. It's something, because whenever our family goes over there and visits, I never see him smile. Back when he was 15ish I remember him being super-friendly; it's like when these kids hit adulthood, they lose vitality.

dibabear

08-12-2005, 09:54 PM

It's not something unique to Japan. That same mentality lives and breathes all over the world. My employer (good ole American company) is the same. Anyone who stands out will get hammered down, not only in Japan.

Societal change is an impossibility. It's as your friends say, it will change slowly...eventually. The only change we can effect is how WE react and what we do individually. If enough folks do that, society will change as the sum of the individuals that make it up.

In the U.S. we promote "be yourself" and "be an individual" but if you do that, follow your own drum, you are very much on your own. It's taken me years of being hammered down to realize that what we say isn't what we do. In Japan it's more obvious because what they say and do is pretty much the same.

My nickels worth.

ChillWinston

08-12-2005, 11:55 PM

This might explain why Japan hasn't produced anything radically innovative and world-changing since....ummm...ever.

For God's sake they eat rice with sticks still. They can invent a robot that has more personality than half the general populace, but they can't quite "cotton" to the idea of silverware.

O.o

hapacheese

08-13-2005, 12:01 AM

KO3AK

08-13-2005, 12:05 AM

Kaji

08-13-2005, 12:10 AM

The Japanese will innovate, but only within existing technologies. It's rare for them to come up with something original, as almost everything they create tends to be innovating features and approaches to outfit existing technologies

ChillWinston

08-13-2005, 12:20 AM

Hm. That last remark almost borders on offensive. So, if it's not westernized it's not "modern"? Chopsticks are vastly superior than a fork and knife for eating Japanese foods. I sure as hell would rather eat rice with chopsticks.

Japan is on the forefront of robotics and nanotech, keeping pace with even MIT. What about hybrid cars? And hell, cell phone/camera technology is vastly superior in Japan than the West.

Who invented cars? Where would robots and nanotech be without oh, umm, electricity or the nuclear generators that create it? Where did phones come from? I'm not talking EVOLUTION, I'm talking REVOLUTION.

South Korea has made leaps and bounds in genetic engineering and medicine, but where would those bastards be without the vaccine?

I'm saying this, and only this: it is the epitome of hipocracy to say that making waves and individually sparking societal change is an "arrogant Western ideal" when your whole economy thrives upon improvements on the societal changes of individuals from THE WEST. So, I have a giant 'fuck you' for anyone that says individual innovation is bad.

hapacheese

08-13-2005, 12:26 AM

ChillWinston

08-13-2005, 12:32 AM

ChillWinston

08-13-2005, 12:36 AM

Also, its a total cop-out to say that the only people that "understand" their culture are those who agree with it, or will affirm it as making total sense, and that if you suggest that there might be a better way, you are arrogant and don't understand.

hapacheese

08-13-2005, 12:37 AM

Sure, but I think it's a mutual "leave me the f*ck alone" kind of feeling. I rarely ever encounter any "arrogant Westerner" comments in all my dealings with Japan, simply because I know how to stay out of their way and make (minor) changes on my own.

I agree that they are adopting many Western business practices, but have a strange sense of duty to their "old ways," making for some very difficult-to-deal-with businessmen. It is why the Japanese economy is faultering, methinks. However, they are, and probably always will be, an island people, used to doing things without the interference from external sources. For better, or for worse =\

ChillWinston

08-13-2005, 12:50 AM

hapacheese

08-13-2005, 12:51 AM

For better, or for worse ;)

マルクス主義

08-13-2005, 01:29 AM

This is a bit lengthy, but I must hazzard it...

----

Oh god- with a moniker like mine, how can I abstain from commenting?

Japan did not like having foreign ideologies stuffed down its pink, virgin esophagus. Being a nation whose ideals up until the 明治時代 (Meiji Jidai) were created almost entirely as a biproduct of its isolation, being suddenly jostled with foreign ideologies such as "consumerism" and "liberalism" is not to be recovered from quickly. But what makes the difference between a 明治 era ready to swallow itself and a 平成 (Heisei) nation that seems to inexplicably reconcile the seeming paradox of going to マクドナルドズ (Mickey D's) after 剣道 (Kendo) class?

Now, granted that Japan is an export culture, the way they portray themselves through アニメ makes for a good gauge of how a significant portion of the population is courted:

"The Japanese seem to fear social change above all else."

Any casual "scholar" of the works of Campbell would recognize change as his central tenet, making this statement even more poetic; most (if not all) animes are hardline cosmogonic, almost going so far as to make their plots obscured completely unless one is intimately familiar with the archetypes (ie, Wolf's Rain).

To wit, no anime has ever dared challenge gender roles or insinuate anything other than jungian psychology; the rationale for this is simple, insomuch as it is Japan's only way of reconciling westernization with 武士道 (Bushidou). Jung himself cites a fear of death as the primary source of suffering in this world and something that must be freely accepted; similarly, 武士道 at its heart is a resolute acceptance of death. Thus, アニメ then becomes a matter of bridging the gap between inevitable westernization and Japanese tradition. A compromise, if you will.

(As an aside, just as postmodernism-- the archetypes' natural enemy-- is dying in America, so too is Japan trying to pretend that it ever had any to be vanquished. This explains virtually everything IG Productions makes, as well as the Matrix' widespread popularity.)

Now, the genius of the cosmogonic cycle as an underspoken dialectic is two-fold. First is the interwoven dialectic of death itself; whenever death is given meaning, this meaning can be used as a way of both using death to extract resources and using given deaths to bolster the spiritual reverence towards the ultimate goal of furthering capitalism. (In fact, the second part may well be one of the best and most entertainingly ironic ways to visualize Hegel's concept of a dialect of negativity- the idea of the Geist [capitalism] realizing itself through the removal of its finite nature, that is. One could argue that Hegel and Campbell are alike save for their metaphysical discrepancies-- Hegel, for instance, rejects the notion of any object's relying on distant otherness as a form of truth-- but that is neither here nor there.)

The second implication of the cosmogonic cycle as a replica in lieu of 武士道, though, is the fact that it stresses change as the most vital part of life (much in the way Hegel does for the Geist to realize itself) and yet says that all change is validated insomuch as it reaffirms the status quo. In Campbellian terms, the Elixir must be returned to those in peril. On a personal basis, this "new dialectic" (a joke, since it's actually as old as the first time a man choked a bitch) stresses internal change in a way that values work. Jung et all draw heavily off of Zen Buddhism (no offense to any Christian Zen masters out there), which itself stresses a "personal journey" and work ethic as a result of that. (The bourgeoisie-minded individuals should find that especially palatte-pleasing.)

The fact that both chivalry and Jung are crazy-sexist is just a coincidence. No, really. (Sarcastic)

So what is the implication of this? Well, the Japanese are taught to now love change that hates change. (Talk about a twisted paradox.) Furthermore, this faux-ethical pro-working stance lends itself to politics we might align with the Democratic party- complacency, mealymouthed talk of morality, idealistic nonsense from the Enlightenment period, et cetera. You could almost call it phyrric if equality was such a belief's end goal in the first place.

So if you're going to say that no American can change Japan, that may be true, but only since the Americans who actually would do such a thing are the ones responsible for shaping it in the first place. Much moreso than any American's inability is the fact that any Japanese person cannot change the fate of her or his country, particularly when the west's most vile parasites still have their tendrils crawling up the rising sun's lowered rectum. ジェッフ先生 (Az) once stated that Japan is in Iraq because of Gaijin Smash, but in truth, it's because Japan itself is merely an extension of the Democratic party, which as Daschle so gladly showed, is nothing more than a conglomerate of weak-willed political whores.

Kustom

08-13-2005, 12:29 PM

As much as I hate saying this, but it is this sort of mentality that makes the Japanese think "arrogant Westerner."

The Japanese *understand* that the West thrives on individuality and they understand the innovation that it leads to. However, the Japanese come from a different culture. Who are we to say which is better? Is a culture's worth completely based on the technological innovations they provide the world? Does that mean, say, Africa is completely useless?

I understand perfectly your point and like I said, even I am not really sure of anything being better or worse anymore... But I do feel that eventually, you come down to a point where you can't just accept anything. There are things that I really believe are better than others, like Justice > impunity, Democracy > one party rule, equal rights > discrimination, stuff like that... I'm not saying all good things come from the West, on the contrary. I believe Japanese people should make some changes to improve their daily life and their level of happiness and freedom. And I believe we Westerners would do well to listen to others around us more, learn about our own limits and eat rice with chopsticks.

However you can't just have unconditionnal relativism when dealing with a culture so different as Japan (I actually lived in Africa too but believe me, the cultural gap is way smaller). You have to make concious choices one way or the other, like are you gonna clean up after yourself or let your woman coworker do it? If I do it fits with my personnal ethics (aka western individualism) but everyone will look at me strange and I might in fact embarass her.

What if someone wants to drag you into a hostess bar, or makes mean matchist comments on a women friend of yours, or asks you ? Do you take a stand or accept it as part of the culture?

What I'm saying is that Japanese people tend to give you the cultural relativist answer not some times, but ALL the time. It almost doesn't matter what you suggest, their answer seems to be the same always: "You're a gaijin, so you can't understand, this is not possible in Japan...". Now what if, by some extraordinary chance, I had it right this time? I really understood the Japanese point of view but still had valid arguments against it? Would they listen? I doubt so...

It seems to me that the Japanese do expect change to happen slowly and quietly and never come from individual effort, but then, I'd like to ask, if not from an actual person then where does change come from? Society? Society is the sum of all individuals, that's my Western take on it, it doesn't have a mind of its own. An individual alone can't change the world, but if enought people get together and do something, change can happen. It's like voting: one vote has never made a difference in any election in history, not even a close one... But if nobody bothered to vote, then the whole structure of democracy would crumble. Well, like many people, my Japanese friends don't bother to vote... Everybody was pouring shit on Horie (the CEO of Livedoor) when he tried to change Japanese business prctices recently, even people who secretly agreed with him. But now that he's succeeded, the same people are pretty happy to take advantage of that very change he brought.

I look at the history of Japan and I don't see anything that makes it so different from western history. Change has been initiated in a rather brutal way, by strong individuals with an agenda. I don't see this slow societal change anywhere, except as part of outside influences like MTV (I told you the West was sometimes way worse...).
So I think that as somebody pointed out, Japanese understand well the process of evolution, but are in denial when it comes to revolution. I'm maybe the only one who thinks Japan needs more than small ajustements at this point, but hell I'm French so if I probably suffer from the opposite deficiency... If I had it my way quite a few heads would be on a lance here :D . Probably better I don't.

Kragar

08-13-2005, 01:31 PM

1. I wouldn't say that Japan can't be changed by foreigners. The Japanese business model is actually based on the American business model of the 50s and 60s, and adapted to their culture.

2. The biggest difference between American and Asian culture is the American willingness to defend themselves. Americans will fight for so many things that Asians wouldn't even dream of fighting over, because Americans view things as "theirs," even if it's a seat in a restaurant or personal space. _This_ is truly Western arrogance, and the power behind Gaijin Smash, and it has its good effects and bad effects.

3 マルクス主義: I find it ironic that your statements regarding something uniquely Japanese would focus on Zen Buddhism, a foreign philosophy from half the world away that has been adopted and adapted by the Japanese.

マルクス主義

08-13-2005, 04:25 PM

(First off, I still don't remember calling anything uniquely Japanese, but nevertheless.)

Daruma himself was a chinny-man. Even the Hiragana are derived from kanji equivalents, which were imported from China. (あ, for instance, comes from 安, and ろ comes from 弓.) Zen was the primary philosophy of chivalry back then, but also keep in mind the fact that Japan was virtually untouched by Buddhism from Nepal (or, for that matter, any cultural influence from anywhere other than maybe Korea). On the other hand, Christianity is a cultural relic the likes of which America would embrace as a part of its national identity, even if 50% of the world practices it. In fact, few things are uniquely American, and yet those things that aren't are still part of our cultural identity. There'd be a similar situation if Japan tried to force Shinto on us Yanks. I don't see how citing Zen as a cultural influence is abusive.

So if your point is that Japan isn't as isolated as I first stated, that's correct- but at the same time, Chinese cultural contributions are virtually irrelevant when faced from us westerners' perspective. Heck, England got its vocabulary from the French (well, technically the Normans). That doesn't change the fact that it's still an island nation. In fact, you can trace practically all of England's foreign-originating culture to France. You certainly won't see anyone sipping from Beersteins under the Union Jack, and what is "uniquely English" would still very much be so whenever the Aztecs crossed the ocean to grind their institutions into dust.

EDIT: Am I the only person who sees the irony in the "Post Quick Response" button?

silentplummet

08-13-2005, 04:33 PM

Yes. What is the irony in the "Post Quick Response" button?

Tamerlin

08-14-2005, 10:00 AM

Great discussion. I've heard these kind of arguements before, but find it doesn't fit with some "process imporvement" classes I've taken at work recently. "Lean Thinking", "Kaizen", "Kaikoku" (sp?) all originated in Japan. Toyota is the world benchmark in constantly improving its products. Yet the requirement to do this within a democratc society does not seem to be recognized in Japan.

Then I realized that this is one of the best things that Toyota has done. Thru years of struggle, it has placed "continual improvement" within its "system". It is now abnormal not to constantly seek change, to fix what is broken.

Maybe this mindset could be transplanted into the overall Japanesse society, tho I'm not sure post office privatization is the method.

Azrael

08-14-2005, 01:40 PM

No one wants to be different here.

For example - my schools, like any other school in Japan, has sports clubs. These clubs run for two hours after school, and most teachers have a club they are responsible for. ...They may not go everyday (the kids are kind of self-dependent) but they certainly couldn't leave school until the club was finished. The clubs run on Saturdays, and sometimes Sundays as well. AND during summer vacation. I'd say the sports clubs alone makes school at least 30% harder than it should be.

NO ONE wants to do sports clubs everyday. The students get tired, and the teachers probably have better ways to spend their time. Talk to a student/teacher privately, and they will admit this.

But NO ONE will stand up and say "Y'know what? Sports clubs everyday sucks. Let's only do it three times a week." If someone did, every other teacher would beat him/her down, even though they agreed. Why? We can't possibly be, *gasp* different from everyone else! Even if the school did something radical and did change that, then the parents would end up complaining, even if they probably deep down agreed as well. And God forbid the PTA become angered.

So then the result is that everybody does sports clubs everyday, even though nobody likes it.

Resistance is futile.

silentplummet

08-14-2005, 02:14 PM

In some ways this doesn't sound too different from my memory of school in the USA. As a student I didn't have too much say in what went on around me, or even happened directly to me. The administration always dealt swiftly with insubordination, but heaven help you if you managed to invoke the PTA to move.

I guess the main difference is that we never risked much for fear of endangering our academic future, rather than some imperative that we be the same as everyone else. My parents always encouraged me to stand up and be unique, and I have to assume most of my friends could say the same.

MaverickHL

08-14-2005, 03:25 PM

The Japanese mindset is very interesting, but in a way, it is a bit sad that they just conform as if there is nothing outside what was assigned to them. One thing for sure, the countryside is even more like that since they are more conservative, and as for rumours, well they fly so fast I could not escape to a plane if my life depended on it.

Pretty much unless the Japanese person has been exposed to a culture outside of Japan and realizes that there needs to be change, they will think that it is "futile" to change the way things are. Even the host family I am staying took about 10 years and a few foreigners before me before they accepted a few changes, but they still hold on to a few things and that can not be helped since that is part of their upbringing and culture.

Kustom

08-14-2005, 05:15 PM

Pretty much unless the Japanese person has been exposed to a culture outside of Japan and realizes that there needs to be change, they will think that it is "futile" to change the way things are.

Well, what saddens me most is that those very people themselves, once they are back to Japan, quickly get into the mold and stop trying to make changes too... I met those friends I was talking about in America 5 years ago, at the time they seemed like very different people, full of ideas and projects. I can't believe they are talking to me like this now. I also know a few deserters, who lived abroad, liked it, and then decided to stay away from Japan forever... But very few have the will to come back and confront the statu quo, although I know a handful of very tough people trying to actively change things.

I witnessed the same thing as Az did with my students (Only they are mostly salarymen). If you talk to them one on one or in small groups, they'll readily admit that they'd much rather come home to their family at night than go and have a drink with the other zombies from work. Superior or subaltern, it doesn't matter, I guarantee that more than 99% of those people just want to go home after work... But nevertheless, they still go for a drink with their boss for hours, some time as much as 4 times a week or more, just because noone wants to be the first to refuse to conform. The craziness of all this is that even the boss cannot escape it, less so than his subbordinates indeed. No one seems to be in control, no one enjoy that situation, still it remains. I could multiply examples like this... Scares the shit out of me sometimes.

Saitou Hajime

08-14-2005, 06:13 PM

No one wants to be different here.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1696/zdifferent11kw.jpg

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7229/zdifferent29gu.jpg

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7129/zdifferent36jf.jpg

Azrael

08-14-2005, 06:38 PM

^Even the people who rebel do so in the same pre-approved rebellion ways.

Lambda

08-14-2005, 06:41 PM

^Even the people who rebel do so in the same pre-approved rebellion ways.
That made me think of when you went to the rap club and everyone swayed back and forth in neatly arranged lines.

ChronoSphere

08-14-2005, 06:45 PM

WTF was up with those two girl and the makeup? :/

MaverickHL

08-14-2005, 06:46 PM

True about the pre-approved rebellion, I even see that here, but it is one of those things that made my head think "welcome to Japan".

Arilou

08-14-2005, 09:01 PM

Heck, England got its vocabulary from the French (well, technically the Normans).

A gross simplification, not only that, but you have to remember that the french *also* got their vocabulary from other places (Latin most importantly of course, but greek, arab, german and other languages as well)

That doesn't change the fact that it's still an island nation.

Obviously not. But despite the british pretense to the opposite, Britain has always (in a way that Japan has not) been a part of a larger political system: No british monarch has ever been able to completely ignore the continent.

In fact, you can trace practically all of England's foreign-originating culture to France.

Not true at all, apart from colonial influence (that to some degree does go both ways) there has also been scandinavian influence, dutch influence, etc. etc. Admittedly a lot of it brought in via the french.

I posted this before, but I think that the japanese essentially lack a civil society: They are used to being organized from above, unlike Swedes or Americans who (despite having *huge* differences in outlook in general) both have a tradition of self-organizing when something needs to be done. (this kind of organization, btw. is the cornerstone of a working democracy; be it into political parties, labour-unions, keep-the-streets-clean associations or any other form of action group or special interest)

PopCulturePooka

08-15-2005, 02:07 AM

^Even the people who rebel do so in the same pre-approved rebellion ways.
Exactly, they study and analyse the magazines that dictate those fashions. They shop at exactly the same shops everyone else who follows that fashion does. God forbid they act any differently than any others in that fashion group do.

One interesting thing I found while teaching at NOVA is that there are a few people that did do a bit of mold breaking. However these people were widely travelled and very very rich. Its like they have achieved levels in their lives that allow them to break out of societies chains to an extent.

Chuplayer

08-15-2005, 02:53 AM

No one wants to be different here.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1696/zdifferent11kw.jpg

Seeing that just made me laugh my ass off. But then Az said what he said about preapproved rebellion and the rest of those pictures made sense. (Or some semblance of sense.)

Quartermaster

08-15-2005, 05:47 AM

WTF was up with those two girl and the makeup? :/

Are you familiar with the Fashion SWAT? (http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2807)

akitaka

08-15-2005, 06:46 AM

Worse yet, it costs a lot of cash to "rebel" in that manner. I don't even think 30,000 yen cover the monthly costs. I recall reading a ko-gal interview and the lowest sum I found was 20k, but that could be higher now.

Kustom

08-15-2005, 08:15 AM

Are you familiar with the Fashion SWAT? (http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2807)

This was hilarious. Mean, but well, they deserve it for the fear and loathing I suffer every time I go to Harajuku. If Hunter Thompson had had a chance to cross Shibuya as it is now, his brains would probably have blown out of his skull right away, before he even took a single pill... As I remember Las Vegas now, through the prism of Tokyo youth culture, the Circus Circus crowd looks like a tasteful, elegant bunch.

Sad thing is, Ganguro style used to be kind of a freak act, but now just about every 18 year old seems to be somewhat close to that style. A lot of them dress up and make up like this on week-ends but do come back to their normal high school attire when back in Chiba. And to make things worse, I heard that the new fashion is to dress in a complete pikachu/catgirl uniform. I've seen it a few times, fortunately my sanity was left weakened but still standing. I couldn't take it on a larger scale, though, let's hope it doesn't spread to the general teenage population.

decswxaqz

08-15-2005, 09:16 AM

Saitou Hajime

08-15-2005, 09:46 AM

In a sense, all forms of rebellion are "pre-approved". "Punk" was a "rebellion", but look at it. I think the only non-accepted forms of rebellion are crimes nowadays.

MFDub

08-15-2005, 10:35 AM

Az (and others), have you pointed this out to them? If it is as wide spread as you say it is, which I agree to, then why not tell them that it's no longer one nail standing out, it's thousands. That sort of nail can't be pounded down :P.
I think that Gaijin can't change anything at the minute. But they can certainly make people think about it a bit more. You have to start telling them that they aren't alone. Christ, get everyone who says they don't like going to sports club 6 days a week in one room and say "You lot don't like playing sports 6 days a week".
Maybe that's just my Western "We can change the world attitude". Which is strange because I've never had it before =/

As someone has been saying. Who are we to say it's wrong? I think that at the time being it is wrong. They've been in a depression for a very long time now. Since the 90s they've not really got out of it much. It needs a kick up the backside in my opinion. I don't think the "let's wait it out, it'll get better" attitude is helping at the time being. When it was going strong, it seemed to work. But it needs change now to get better fast.

The problem is that one can't really hold a revolution like that. Even if Az got all those people in the same room and mentioned the fact that sports all the time sucks, he'd probably just get a lot of nodding. Then when he suggested something should be done, he'd probably get a lot of blank stares.

To truly create strong social change, two things need to be present: a kick in the rear and some form of leadership. Often, one of these things leads to the other. Right now, neither of those things are there.

Of course, the problem isn't limited to Japan. It's all over the world, in various countries. I could think of dozens of different ways this problem exists in the US, among other places.

Kustom

08-15-2005, 02:54 PM

The problem is that one can't really hold a revolution like that. Even if Az got all those people in the same room and mentioned the fact that sports all the time sucks, he'd probably just get a lot of nodding. Then when he suggested something should be done, he'd probably get a lot of blank stares.

Either that or the kids wouldn't admit it. My experience is that as soon as you put them in front of their peers, they won't say a word of dissent against the norm. It's only when talking to you one on one, since it's understood you're an outsider, that they'd open up a little. But even if you had it on tape, they would sooner commit traditional ritual suicide than admit that they think that way in front of the others...

To truly create strong social change, two things need to be present: a kick in the rear and some form of leadership. Often, one of these things leads to the other. Right now, neither of those things are there.

This is really a great way to put it, I think that's what I was trying to say from the beginning, written like this it's crystal clear! I only wish I could write so efficiently...

Alina

08-15-2005, 02:57 PM

For God's sake they eat rice with sticks still. They can invent a robot that has more personality than half the general populace, but they can't quite "cotton" to the idea of silverware.

You think silverware is some sort of technological innovation? Sorry to dissappoint you, it's been around for centuries. Saying they should stop eating with chopsticks is the same as saying they should abandon their cuisine because they now have access the Western cooking.

Have you even tried eating, say, sushi with a fork?

There's a fine line between preserving a culture and resisting change. And quite frankly, I don't think Americans should be ones to talk, my outside observer view shows me that modern America is regressing in culture and morals instead of progressing. All of its "hooray individualism" attitude doesn't seem to be doing any good for (for example) gay rights.

Arilou

08-15-2005, 04:36 PM

You think silverware is some sort of technological innovation? Sorry to dissappoint you, it's been around for centuries. Saying they should stop eating with chopsticks is the same as saying they should abandon their cuisine because they now have access the Western cooking.

Have you even tried eating, say, sushi with a fork?

There's a fine line between preserving a culture and resisting change. And quite frankly, I don't think Americans should be ones to talk, my outside observer view shows me that modern America is regressing in culture and morals instead of progressing. All of its "hooray individualism" attitude doesn't seem to be doing any good for (for example) gay rights.

To be fair, the utensils we eat with today are only around 300-years old (the spoon and knife being much older than the fork of course)

tm23

08-15-2005, 05:30 PM

Who invented cars? Where would robots and nanotech be without oh, umm, electricity or the nuclear generators that create it?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the link between "nuclear generators" and robots and nanotechnology.

I'm saying this, and only this: it is the epitome of hipocracy to say that making waves and individually sparking societal change is an "arrogant Western ideal" when your whole economy thrives upon improvements on the societal changes of individuals from THE WEST. So, I have a giant 'fuck you' for anyone that says individual innovation is bad.

Do you know anything about the technologies or innovations you talk about? I'd say not. You probably don't know that while Edison was a great inventor, his iconoclastic nature got him kicked out of what was then Edison General Electric since he adamantly refused to acknowledge the use of AC versus DC for electricity. You may know of that company he was kicked out of (by JP Morgan and other Wall Street types) as General Electric, which did become a bigger corporation and power than rival Westinghouse but not due to innovation, but due to superior management.

The "nuclear generators" weren't a result of one lone guy in his lab either. Nuclear fission was first seen by a team in Germany, a result that Fermi's team that had fled the Nazis to the US replicated in the first controlled nuclear chain reaction. From there, the Manhattan Project was a huge effort, an unwieldy partnership of the government/military and academia, carried on to this day by such national labs as Sandia and Los Alamos and cannot be called an "individual effort" by anyone.

Similarly with the transistor and the IC, both of which were developed by teams in corporations. Teams consisting of brilliant individuals to be sure, but teams nonetheless working not out of their garage, but out of a corporate lab.

The example that may come closest in recent memory, in the technology sector, to your ideal of lone individuals challenging the establishment and changing the world, would be the rise of cellular phones, challenging what was the largest company on earth (AT&T). But even then, it was a group of upstart companies that had teams of lawyers and lobbyists to bring about their vision of a phone network unfettered by wires.

And if you want to say, "what about the internet?" let me remind you that it was born of a project by DARPA to create a packet switched network that would be relatively impervious to damage. And while DARPA has brilliant individuals, they are individuals working for the largest bureacracy on the planet.

BTW, even Edison had a lot of help in his lab at Menlo Park.

hapacheese

08-15-2005, 06:04 PM

Sorry, Kustom. Didn't see this post. I'll respond now:

I believe Japanese people should make some changes to improve their daily life and their level of happiness and freedom. And I believe we Westerners would do well to listen to others around us more, learn about our own limits and eat rice with chopsticks.

Well said. I think we are in complete agreement here. (I was partially playing devil's advocate earlier... I agree with you, believe it or not ;) )

like are you gonna clean up after yourself or let your woman coworker do it? <clip> What if someone wants to drag you into a hostess bar, or makes mean matchist comments on a women friend of yours, or asks you ?

If the situation will only affect me, I tend to simply go with the flow. However, if the culture requires me to do something demeaning to others, I draw the line, bow graciously and decline in a polite a way as I can muster. However, I *have* been dragged to hostess bars (and they like upping the ante, too... the last two times they took me to a cosplay hostess bar and then a transvestite hostess bar just for shits and giggles). The thing about those places is that the women are there of their own free will. They understand that they are being paid to be trophies and are fine with it. They are not being forced into slavery, although the culture itself does mold them into feeling that it is okay.

However, I have known several girls who did that sort of work (nothing sleazy, though... just the hostess stuff) while going through college and they felt that it was empowering to a degree. When I go, I simply make casual conversation, have a few drinks, and bid the ladies farewell.

As for the macho comments to a lady friend, I refer to my first response. If it involves anyone other than me, I draw the line. Even if the comments are directed at a Japanese female friend of mine, I will likely stand up, and erect a Gaijin Barrier (new powers discovered?!). While it is sometimes off-putting to the guy that made the comments, I like to think I'm quick enough on my feet to change the subject or distract them with a funny impression or quick joke.

As for the "gaijin don't understand," well... it is true, regardless of being right or wrong. I like to think that I'm as Japanese as one can get without *really* being Japanese, and even I don't understand my own family at times. While an outsider will be able to look at the situation and point out what is wrong, there are too many societal pressures on the individual in Japan to allow them to act freely. As stupid as it sounds, it's simply the way they were raised (again, all questions of right and wrong aside).

The funny/ironic part of it all is that the gradual change they always speak of will almost always come from an individual. It is the artists, the leaders, pop stars, and individual politicians that affect Japanese society the most. However, to the layman, they simply wait until whatever change has reached a sort of cultural event horizon before adopting it themselves.

Kaji

08-16-2005, 04:27 AM

A gross simplification, not only that, but you have to remember that the french *also* got their vocabulary from other places (Latin most importantly of course, but greek, arab, german and other languages as well)

More than just that, while we imported a lot of Old French back in the 11-1200s, I've been doing some research on Old and Middle English that's shown a goodly portion of the most commonly used words in modern English to have derived from Old English, which would mean a strong influence from German and your early Scandinavian tongues...

Roxie

08-16-2005, 04:44 AM

what is sekuhara?

Kustom

08-16-2005, 05:40 AM

sekuhara=sexual harassment

Thanx for your answer, Hapacheese, I think we're pretty much agreed!

For the record, language influence and cultural influence go both ways...

Take the French word : "flirter". Obviously it comes from the English "to flirt"...
However, "to flirt" comes from older French "compter fleurette"

Besides, modern Modern French bears as much resemblance to Old French as English does, it's pretty much a different language... In a country like France (which stands pretty much as the crossroad of Western Europe), there are so many foreign influences that it's impossible to trace them all back... But to a lesser extent, this is true of England or even Japan...

"Arigato" supposedly derived from Portuguese "Obrigado"

Pierrot le Fou

08-16-2005, 06:07 AM

That post on the first page which read like a pseudo-intellectual paper on mental masturbation drove me bonkers.

Anyway, back to the point. The Japanese are great at working where groups succeed, which is effective management and hard group efforts (manufacturing, etc.). Unfortunately, their economy requires the development of innovative skills if it wants to remain competitive, but the money is all tied up in increasingly over-managing companies, and products whose quality are rapidly decreasing (see the current slew of scandals across Japanese companies).

There is a Japanese expression which I can't find in japanese at the moment, something to the extent of 4 steps forward, 3 steps back.

The warring states period (prior to the edo period) ended with the Tokugawa dynasty, and there was peace (YAY!), but then the culture stagnated (boo) for 250 years until Perry came with new technology and globalization (YAY!). Unfortunately, the culture adopted all these things during the Meiji era, which they mostly didn't change until after WWII (boo). After WWII, they changed their economy, management, and government (yay!), but then didn't let it evolve into something better, and are again stagnating (boo).

It's unfortunate.

tm23

08-16-2005, 04:53 PM

The Japanese are great at working where groups succeed, which is effective management and hard group efforts (manufacturing, etc.). Unfortunately, their economy requires the development of innovative skills if it wants to remain competitive, but the money is all tied up in increasingly over-managing companies, and products whose quality are rapidly decreasing (see the current slew of scandals across Japanese companies).

I've often heard it said (maybe in the pages of the Economist, but I can't remember for sure) that Japan really has two economies. There's the external one, which is very competitive (e.g. cars (except for mitsubishi ;) ), consumer electronics, chip design/fabrication) and the internal one, which is essentially monopolistic, duopolies or some sort of cartel in many sectors.

Of course, these days the "external" economy is not what it used to be, either: Troubles at Sony, Nissan being bought by Renault, and South Korea/China/Taiwan beating out Japan in industries like shipbuilding, shipping and consumer electronics. I don't think Japan is losing because of a lack of innovation, but because of cost.

Have people seen the Kurosawa film "Ikiru"? That hits upon the same theme regarding how difficult and out of place it is to go against the grain, to cause trouble, even if it's the "right" thing to do.

hapacheese

08-16-2005, 05:55 PM

Actually, from my experience working in a full-blown Japanese corporation is that the Japanese hive-mentality *truly* only works if you have very strong leadership. Someone who will go against the grain on behalf of the company, and lead all the worker bees in the right direction.

The average Japanese simply waits for the management to make the change, then they enact that change. However, the problem with many Japanese corporations is that the management is too afraid to make decisions, too afraid to change.

A great example of this is Nintendo. They *had* great leadership who was willing to experiment, be cutthroat, and get ahead. They dominated the industry. But, when they got too settled in their ways and refused to adapt and change, they fell behind the times. They still have strong enough leadership to put out quality games, but not strong enough to lead the company out of the rut they are stuck in...

Marblehead

08-16-2005, 08:28 PM

In a sense, all forms of rebellion are "pre-approved". "Punk" was a "rebellion", but look at it. I think the only non-accepted forms of rebellion are crimes nowadays.

You know, I wrote an essay back in May when I was in Tokyo. I think I'll put it in the stories forum. I wrote it after reading Hunter Thompson's Hell's Angels.

The idea is that the only true rebels, the true one percenters, have to be absolutely hated by the rest of society. People have to want to kill them in order for them to be true rebels.

Roxie

08-16-2005, 11:14 PM

Heck, England got its vocabulary from the French (well, technically the Normans).

From wikipedia.com
English is a West Germanic language that originated from languages brought to Britain during the first half of the first millennium by Germanic settlers from various parts of north-west Germany. These settlers included tribes that have been identified as the Frisians, Angles, Saxons, and Jutes. The original Germanic language was subsequently influenced by two successive waves of invasion. The first was by speakers of languages in the Scandinavian branch of the Germanic family, who colonised parts of Britain in the eighth and ninth centuries. The second wave was of the Normans in the 11th century, who spoke a variety of French. These two invasions caused English to become highly 'creolised'; creolisation arises from the cohabitation of speakers of different languages, who develop a hybrid tongue for basic communication. Cohabition with the Scandinavians resulted in a significant grammatical simplification and lexical enrichment of the Anglo-Friesian core of English; the later Norman occupation led to the grafting onto that Germanic core a more elaborate layer of words from the Romance branch of European languages; this new layer entered English through use in the courts and government. Thus, English developed into a 'borrowing' language of considerable suppleness and huge vocabulary.

According to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, around the year 449, Vortigern, King of the British Isles, invited the "Angle kin" (Angles, led by Hengest and Horsa) to help him against the Picts. In return, the Angles were granted lands in the south-east. Further aid was sought, and in response "came men of Ald Seaxum of Anglum of Iotum" (Saxons, Angles, and Jutes). The Chronicle talks of a subsequent influx of settlers who eventually established seven kingdoms, known as the heptarchy. Modern scholarship considers most of this story to be legendary and politically motivated.

These Germanic invaders dominated the original Celtic-speaking inhabitants, whose languages survived largely in Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, and Ireland. The dialects spoken by the invaders formed what would be called Old English, which resembled some coastal dialects in what are now Holland and north-west Germany. Later, it was strongly influenced by the North Germanic language Norse, spoken by the Vikings who settled mainly in the north-east (see Jorvik). The new and the earlier settlers spoke languages from different branches of the Germanic family; many of their lexical roots were the same or similar, although their grammars were more distant, including the prefixes, suffixes and inflections of many of their words. Using the common elements of their languages, the two peoples developed a pidgin and then a creole; this resulted in a stripping away of much of the grammar of Old English, including gender and case, with the notable exception of the pronouns; thus, the language became simpler and plainer. The most famous work from the Old English period is the epic poem "Beowulf," by an unknown poet.

For the 300 years following the Norman Conquest in 1066, the Norman kings and the high nobility spoke only a variety of French. A large number of Norman words were assimilated into Old English, with some words doubling for Old English words (for instance ox/beef, sheep/mutton). The Norman influence reinforced the continual evolution of the language over the following centuries, resulting in what is now referred to as Middle English. Among the changes was a broadening in the use of a unique aspect of English grammar, the 'continuous' tenses, with the suffix '-ing'. During the 15th century, Middle English was transformed by the Great Vowel Shift, the spread of a standardised London-based dialect in government and administration, and the standardising effect of printing. Modern English can be traced back to around the time of William Shakespeare. The most well-known work from the Middle English period is Geoffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales.

Pierrot le Fou

08-17-2005, 12:01 AM

マルクス主義 got burrrrned!

Dayyyyyyyy-am!

The only reason this contents me is because he posted pseudo-intellectual drivel on the first page for the sake of mental masturbation, and it was neither easy to read, nor comprehensible. And that makes for poor writing. Whatever happened to the concept of writing something simply and not mincing words to make a point? Or do you think that you have the intellect/linguistic understanding of Nietzsche such that you use grammar and linguistics very particularly so that while it may be unwieldy to read, what it means is far more accurate to what you're trying to express...

hapacheese

08-17-2005, 01:04 AM

Hahaha...

Roxie: 1
マルクス主義: 0

Round two... FIGHT!

Kuribo's Shoe

08-17-2005, 02:25 PM

"A large number of Norman words were assimilated into Old English, with some words doubling for Old English words (for instance ox/beef, sheep/mutton). The Norman influence reinforced the continual evolution of the language over the following centuries, resulting in what is now referred to as Middle English." (Wikipedia)

So, this says that the english _did_ get some of their their vocabulary from the French (the Normans), right? That's what マルクス主義 said, yes?

"What is the irony in the 'Post Quick Response' button?" (silentplummet)

I think the irony lies in the fact that most of the posts to that point had been long and thoughtful, not "quick" at all.

"([Death of post-modernism] explains virtually everything IG Productions makes, as well as the Matrix' widespread popularity)" (マルクス主義)

Not so sure about that. The Matrix was more than just the retelling of the second coming of Christ. The special effects were wicked cool (bullet-time, how cool was that when you first saw it?), and the last third of the movie featured some great action scenes.

"Whenever death is given meaning, this meaning can be used as a way of both using death to extract resources and using given deaths to bolster the spiritual reverence towards the ultimate goal of furthering capitalism." (マルクス主義)

Whoa...gonna need an example of that.

"Furthermore, this faux-ethical pro-working stance lends itself to politics we might align with the Democratic party- complacency, mealymouthed talk of morality, idealistic nonsense from the Enlightenment period, et cetera." (マルクス主義)

Today's democratic party? Hmmm...maybe. But (as far as I can tell) the democratic party wants changes in the government that will have tangible results, whereas a purely "faux-ethical pro-working stance" would lead to no real changes at all.

"I posted this before, but I think that the japanese essentially lack a civil society: They are used to being organized from above, unlike Swedes or Americans who (despite having *huge* differences in outlook in general) both have a tradition of self-organizing when something needs to be done." (Arilou)

Great point. That just about sums up my opinion.

Dae_Dae

08-17-2005, 04:32 PM

Oh, Japan will change....eventually :rolleyes:

AnaPro

08-20-2005, 10:44 PM

Not being a nail that sticks out in a nation of nails that don't stick out gives a person a feeling of security that westerners just can't have. Yes, it (collectivism) is an archaic system that doesn't fit well into the modern world, but still people living in such societies have a hard time giving it up. Individualism is a system that creates a tumultuous society that is the very opposite of the tranquility that people in collectivist societies have learned to love. In a homogeneous society like Japan it sticks especially well, and even the rebels, like Azrael pointed out, form uniform groups of their own. Individuality and dissension just aren't historically a part of that country, like they are in many places in Europe and the US. Therefore we westerners should have an understanding of this background when before judge societies like Japan. This also applies to many other countries, most notably many Muslim societies.

bloop

08-21-2005, 06:51 PM

I'm Chinese American, and I understand the "not making waves" mentality. My house was robbed, and my family refused to call the cops. Things like speaking out was never done.
There is a certain comfort in being in a conformist society. It's a hell of a lot easier to follow the norm than to think for yourself, and you have no fear of not fitting in.
In Japan, people are unwilling to work for change, because you're looked badly upon if you try to be an individual. In general, the atmosphere turns hostile if you're not part of the norm.
I was in Japan for several weeks over the summer. Several people gave me a hard time because I was, horrors of horrors, different from what they thought an American should be like. Instead of being shy and quiet, I was being arrogant, because all Americans are loud. If I did not state my opinions on everything, even things I knew nothing about, I was being arrogant, because Americans are opinionated. If I didn't drink beer, it was being I was being, yup, arrogant, because Americans LOVE beer and drink A LOT. The fact that I didn't come in to the office everyday, including Saturday, was because I was lazy like all Americans, not because I had NOTHING TO DO.
Every time I ate, someone would comment on how well I used chopsticks because Americans can't used chopsticks. Let's just ignore the fact that I'm originally from Hong Kong and has just told you that my childhood life - like food and language - is more Chinese than American.

Sometimes change can happen slowly, but for a lot of things, it requires a catalyst. A doctor told me that it used to be that the residents (recent graduates of medical school in practice) got paid like 10000 yen a month and worked 100+ hours a week AND had a part-time job. Residents, obviously thought this was not good, but did anyone actually try to change things? No. The change only came when one resident died from this lifestyle.
If everything was going great and everyone was happy, then there's nothing wrong with having a conformist society. It's the fact that no one likes the system, yet no one tries to change the system and people actively inhibit you from making changes, that makes the system so screwy.

Re this statement:
"For God's sake they eat rice with sticks still. They can invent a robot that has more personality than half the general populace, but they can't quite "cotton" to the idea of silverware."
I don't understand why this has anything to do with producing innovative or world-changing things. It seems to be that this is more an argument that the Japanese (and a whole lot of other societies too) won't conform to the West.

Kustom

08-22-2005, 10:44 AM

If everything was going great and everyone was happy, then there's nothing wrong with having a conformist society. It's the fact that no one likes the system, yet no one tries to change the system and people actively inhibit you from making changes, that makes the system so screwy.

Great way to put it. If you re-read what Az and I have been writing, the vast majority of the Japanese population (be it junior high school kids, salarymen or housewives) really is unhappy with a lot of things, and would definitely like them to change. However, they have been led to believe that change is not something one can initiate, but something that comes from above (or outside through gaijin smash). I call this a problem, because a hell of a lot of people plainly hate their lives, or at least have daily trouble dealing with sexism, rigid conservatism and following the norm.

If people liked where they were, if change was really happening in the way they think it does, I wouldn't have a problem with the "it's just a different culture" argument. However, like bloop mentionned, it usually takes a big crisis for people to move their asses and unwillingly change (as illustrated by Perry's arrival, Hiroshima or train accidents). This is true of every country to some extent, but in Japan it's really striking. They tell you later change is what they always wanted, but never thought of standing up for it.

Roxie

08-22-2005, 02:01 PM

Dana

08-23-2005, 03:37 AM

Being a big linguistics dork i have to chime in on the whole "Where English Vocab Came From" thing. The 100 most used words in everyday conversation in English are all native words, that is, they are not borrowed from another language group. In addition, everyday utilitarian words like body parts are pretty much all native.

The influence of other languages becomes more apparent in our more expanded vocabulary. More sophisticated (for lack of a better word) speech has a lot of french influence, and in areas like medicine there is a ton of latin. An example of what I mean by "more sophisticated" is when you compare the word 'horse' (native germanic word) to the word that means relating to horses, 'equestrian' (latin/french origin).

The two mentioned invasions influenced the English language in very specific ways. The scandinavian invasion introduced a vowel shift which is one of the reasons English spelling is so stupid. The sound of our speech changed, but the spelling didn't which is why we have words like "house" "tough" and "thought" which all have the same representative vowels, but different sounds.

The "French" invasion was actually an invasion by scandinavians who had previously invaded Normandy and assimilated to their culture. Since matters of court were all conducted in French after this in England, English borrowed many words from French and, I am not certain I remember exactly, but I think my Old English professor said about 30% of our vocab is now of French origin. But then, a lot of French vocab is of Latin origin, so its all in how you look at it!

Sorry for the lengthy, off-topic response. Its not often that being a linguist comes in handy ^__~