Racism in Japan?

I don't accept it!! nor defy it.
It just doesn't occur to me that it's racist. The word racism does not EXIST in my everyday vocabulary.

Then what is it?

To me, excluding people due to their heritage, skin color and whatnot is racism. By ignoring these signs, you are supporting racism.

*sigh* please don't judge me based on your standards. I'm perfectly aware, if I was in America, I would not do the same thing. Sometimes... when I go to Japan, or even to China, I feel like I'm switching my identity. Like using a new side of my brain. My thinking changes and my action changes with it. I won't try to bring my Chinese self home, or I won't be accepted here. I won't try to bring my Japanese self to China, or I won't be accepted there.

I'll tell you what you're doing
You're blending in with the masses.

[Zslash]

Originally Posted by DTF-McBain

I'll tell you what you're doing
You're blending in with the masses.

I think he's got a point here, youve got no problem with racism as long as it doesnt affect you?

[koku]

You guys are being harsh. If you want to learn something, take in the truth without pointing fingers. Mabye things aren't as it seems OR it's harder than you think.

Just don't always assume the worst. Unless, you'd prefer her to only tell the truth when it sounds pleasant and lie to you/give you false information if she thinks you can't handle it.

yes we're being a little harsh

we're still miles away from what people subject to racism have to endure every time they face it. If you live in a country where some people hate you and everyone else looks away when the hate is displayed, yet you can't afford to leave, partly because you lost your job due to racism, do you think you could lead a happy life?

[Xenotrauma]

Sure... but the thing is, you're not going to change anybody's mind on a message board. Especially one that only like -three- Japanese people even read (and that's not counting rika). The only thing we can get DONE here is try to understand the Japanese perspective, so we can figure out how to improve the way of life for -everybody- living in Japan. That isn't going to get done if we beat the shit out of the few people that can actually give us feedback on our ideas and questions.

[Frankey-eh]

blending in with masses may be one way to put it. Now, here's another difference. What the heck is wrong with that? I'm pretty sure you meant it in a negative way... but I don't see it that way. Do you think I'm giving up my own identity to fit in? I don't feel that way....>.>

I'm not ignoring the signs. They don't JUMP at me. Like street litter don't jump at me in US (like in SF), but it's pretty obvious in Japan. Does Americans accept littering? No... but it's hard to notice. Now, don't get started on how "oh, so are you saying these signs are so abundant you don't see them?" because... no, that's not it either. Can you be not accepting, not denying, not defying, not ignoring it? Like... I don't know. It's kind of like how my brother didn't catch a sign in front of the library about when it'll close this weekend, even though he's passed through the door at least three times... because he doesn't care to look for it. When you enter the store, you're too preoccupied with what to buy, or talking with friends, to even think about "racism and discrimination". Besides... most Japanese sliding doors are automatic. No reason for you to even look at the door. I'm trying my best to explain. Hopefully it's getting to you...

Final answer: I do not look at signs when I open doors. Have you ever tried pulling at the door, find it locked, and then look around for store hours, even though it's posted (usually) in black in front of your face? Then you think, oh, duh.

What the heck is wrong with that

as Zslash has already pointed out - you don't care because it's not you that is being discriminated. Try reading the second paragraph in my previous post again please and really try to imagine what this would be like for you.

[Xenotrauma]

I think the issue is... the concept of discrimination being a bad thing is part of OUR values. It's the direct opposite in Japanese culture... blending in is the "moral" thing to do.

We can make moral accusations at them because we've been raised on what we believe is the fact that diversity is a GOOD thing... but from the Japanese perspective, it's seen as a means to chaos. They don't see a "No Gaijin" sign as a racist posting, they just see it as "No running by the pool", a sign that the owner is a little strict... but is trying to maintain order in his shop.

Sure I think it's bad. Sure lots of Japanese think it's bad, but I'm sure no Japanese person believes it's anywhere as bad as we do because it's part of our basic value system. It's a SIN for us. To them the concept of "discrimination = bad" just isn't true. That's where the culture clash comes in, and in the end that's why the argument I always get from Japanese people is so hard to fight... "It's our country, and our value system. Is anyone forcing you to stay?"

[Frankey-eh]

Originally Posted by DTF-McBain

as Zslash has already pointed out - you don't care because it's not you that is being discriminated. Try reading the second paragraph in my previous post again please and really try to imagine what this would be like for you.

I thought Westerners have this kind of proverb too...
When in Rome, do as Romans do.
What's wrong with me being Japanese in Japan, Chinese in China, and American in America?

[Xenotrauma]

Originally Posted by rika

I thought Westerners have this kind of proverb too...
When in Rome, do as Romans do.
What's wrong with me being Japanese in Japan, Chinese in China, and American in America?

I think the logic barrier we'll hit with that is... usually that just applies to customs. An American might say, "When in Japan, bow instead of shaking hands." But he would violently argue against "When in Japan, adjust your value system and moral compass accordingly."

[Frankey-eh]

Originally Posted by Xenotrauma

I think the logic barrier we'll hit with that is... usually that just applies to customs. An American might say, "When in Japan, bow instead of shaking hands." But he would violently argue against "When in Japan, adjust your value system and moral compass accordingly."

@_@ this is confusing
So for example, "wow"-ing at street litter and "wow"-ing (and even further than that?) at no-gaijin sign... are they different? I just see them as "oh, so this country is this way. that country is this way". End of story.

I prefer to keep things simple.

by accepting a certain thing as "common" (as in, it doesn't make me stop and gasp), does that mean I accept the concept behind them? No... I don't put too much thought into it. Does that make me ignorant? No...I don't think I'm ignoring the issue.

Originally Posted by rika

I thought Westerners have this kind of proverb too...
When in Rome, do as Romans do.
What's wrong with me being Japanese in Japan, Chinese in China, and American in America?

Adapting to their behavior is normal when you life somewhere else for some time, if you don`t want to be an outsider. But when it comes to racism as topic, this way of dealing with their behavoir is plain wrong. When you want to see what happens if everyone say`s " What`s wrong with it? Everyone does it!" come to Germany and visit a Concentration Camp. I know, this is a very harsh and extreme answer to your question, but this is what i think of doing the same things as everyone else, just because they handle it in this special way. We germans have already experienced what MAY happen if you exclude minorities from a normal life and treat them worse than others...it`s nothing i want to see ever again!

btw. This post is just pointed at the racism part of the discussion! Adapting to different cultures is necessary when you life there, as i already said... and i hate my bad english

[羽之助]

I think people are forgetting that racism is part of Western culture too. Go back in time just half a century and you'll find 'Whites Only' signs in the American South (and other places) and 'No Japs or Chinamen' in the Canadian Pacific. And did everyone get in a snit? Nope. Most white people just said ho-hum and went about their business, and if they were really upset about all the gaijin coming in they could join the White Canada Society or the Asiatic Exclusion League. There were a few people who cried racism and discrimination but they were by the by ignored. Slowly, though, more and more gaijin kept on coming and started getting citizenship and demanding their rights, to the point that society said 'Hey! Guess what, they're right!' and began educational campaigns to change people's attitudes. Japan is at that point for North America fifty or a hundred years ago. Foreigners are coming in and getting citizenship and demanding their rights, and slowly the pressure is going to build up and change the social structure of Japan. So is racism and discrimination an intrinsic part of Japanese society that we should just grin and bear with? Only if you would do the same in the West.

[Akelexre]

Originally Posted by rika

@_@ this is confusing
So for example, "wow"-ing at street litter and "wow"-ing (and even further than that?) at no-gaijin sign... are they different?

YES.

Street litter and racism are on COMPLETELY different levels. Discrimination against another human being for the fact that happened to be born of a certain ethnicity > a can of pepsi and old napkins on somebody's lawn. Comparing the two reeks of a very dubious attempt at rationalization.

[Frankey-eh]

Originally Posted by Akelexre

YES.

Street litter and racism are on COMPLETELY different levels. Comparing the two reeks of a very dubious at rationalization.

-_- of course, the ISSUE is different. But how I look at it... they're the same. Like a sponge. Sponge absorbs different kinds of liquids, but they are still absorbed.

[Akelexre]

Originally Posted by rika

-_- of course, the ISSUE is different. But how I look at it... they're the same. Like a sponge. Sponge absorbs different kinds of liquids, but they are still absorbed.

No, they're not the same--see my edited post.

Absorbing acid is not the same as absorbing soda.

They are not the same.

[Xenotrauma]

I guess what we're trying to say with that rika... is that we recognize they're both "issues". We know they're both wrong on some level, and that people turn a blind eye to different things in different areas.

The thing that's a little hard to grasp is... if you compare littering to racism, it feels like you're comparing shoplifting to kidnapping. They're both WRONG, but... as human beings, we recognize that some things are more serious than others. Drawing a connection between littering and racism is offensive to someone being oppressed just like associating vandalism with rape would be -incredibly- offensive to a rape victim.

Does that make a little more sense?

[Frankey-eh]

Originally Posted by Xenotrauma

I guess what we're trying to say with that rika... is that we recognize they're both "issues". We know they're both wrong on some level, and that people turn a blind eye to different things in different areas.

The thing that's a little hard to grasp is... if you compare littering to racism, it feels like you're comparing shoplifting to kidnapping. They're both WRONG, but... as human beings, we recognize that some things are more serious than others. Drawing a connection between littering and racism is offensive to someone being oppressed just like associating vandalism with rape would be -incredibly- offensive to a rape victim.

Does that make a little more sense?

So it basically comes down to personal offense... It all depends on how hard you've been hit with it, right? okay. *puts on a helmet*

I feel like... this thread is going nowhere. It's all just this going in circles.
American me: Racism is bad.
Japanese me: What's racism?

[Chinpokomon]

http://www.debito.org/misawaexclusions.html

Granted, they are right next to a US airbase, but still, if a guy can show you his Japanese passport, he out to be let in.

[Xenotrauma]

I wouldn't say nowhere.. I feel like I've learned a lot from this thread. Understanding perspectives is really important, especially when they seem so completely uncomprehendable

And yeah, I really do think it comes down to personal offense... like I said a few posts up, it's because we see differences in the degree of crimes. Japan doesn't see discrimination in the same "evil" light that we see it in, if they even see it as bad at all... so a comparison to another random offense might seem justifiable.

I think Hane had it right when he said "Foreigners are coming in and getting citizenship and demanding their rights, and slowly the pressure is going to build up and change the social structure of Japan." Racism isn't met with hostility or seen as something that needs to be dealt with, because up until recently (if you can even make the argument that it is NOW), it hasn't been an issue for the Japanese.

I wouldn't assume, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear a Japanese say something like "Racism is an American/European problem", because until it's a major economic or political issue... like it turned into in America... they'll just keep sweeping it under the rug. Not turning a blind eye really... but like you said, the metaphorical torch just isn't burning bright enough for anyone to NOTICE.

Originally Posted by rika

oh. that's news to me. Something about a bunch of Americans following the little guide amuses me...

Redline and Jess:
Thanks for the feedback. Redline, America is out of question for me, not because of any socializing differences, but because I don't agree with... morals, ethics, etc.. I've been getting a lot of propaganda from my parents who diss the American culture 24/7, so I don't have a doubt where my opinon came from...>.> Sometimes I do argue with them, to try to convince them that US isn't as bad as they think. Much like how I argued on this thread (I realized it's not "the other racism thread" but this racism thread ^^'). But my logic always fall short, and I end up getting convinced myself. US is almost at the end of its reign of world powers anyways. But everything else you've both said, I accept with gratitude.

I think the idea that America is anywhere near the end to be greatly exaggerated. Too much business is still done here, and the dollar is still the most stable currency. And if America were somehow to massively decline (which is highly unlikely in the next 100 years), Japan certainly won't be the country to rise-India would be the most likely candidate.

Also, in Europe as well, there are tour packages where Americans follow around a guide, and stick to preestablished routines. That's why many seasoned travellers will stay away from certain places, and why certain places become tourist traps.

And also, which morals/ethics in America do you not agree with? I would be interested to hear what things someone from Japan finds wrong with American culture.

Originally Posted by Xenotrauma

Sure... but the thing is, you're not going to change anybody's mind on a message board. Especially one that only like -three- Japanese people even read (and that's not counting rika). The only thing we can get DONE here is try to understand the Japanese perspective, so we can figure out how to improve the way of life for -everybody- living in Japan. That isn't going to get done if we beat the shit out of the few people that can actually give us feedback on our ideas and questions.

But why is it important to change anyone's mind? I don't think that anyone not Japanese really sees living in Japan as something they can do long-term, it's more an extended vacation until they get doing what they really want to. I don't really care about improving anyone's life over there, if they wanted change they would do it themselves. But apparently racism is so ingrained that not even living away from Japan can make racist tendencies go away.

Honestly, it's Japan's loss. One of the biggest problems facing developed nations is being able to keep a high enough population of high education workers. Most developed nations have declining native populations. But immigration can help maintain a high level of educated workers. You would think that this would be something Japan would excel in-they have programs that allow college-educated foreigners interested in Japan to make decent (not exceptional) wages and live in Japan. But why would these people want to stay to live if they are treated like second-class citizens, especially when nobody there really cares about treating foreigners better? It's also one of the reasons America can remain relatively strong in the future-even though there is some racism, when people do come here to colleges, or when they come here to work, they have a fairly high chance of integrating fully. This is not the case in Japan-there if you look different, you are not even lower on the social system, you're just locked out totally. It's almost like the untouchable system in India, from what I've been led to believe.

Originally Posted by rika

@_@ this is confusing
So for example, "wow"-ing at street litter and "wow"-ing (and even further than that?) at no-gaijin sign... are they different? I just see them as "oh, so this country is this way. that country is this way". End of story.

I prefer to keep things simple.

by accepting a certain thing as "common" (as in, it doesn't make me stop and gasp), does that mean I accept the concept behind them? No... I don't put too much thought into it. Does that make me ignorant? No...I don't think I'm ignoring the issue.

It's quite different. What you are saying is no different than someone who went to Nazi Germany and said "gassing Jews? Oh, so this country is this way". There is a big difference between trash on streets and mistreating people. And I don't understand how you aren't ignoring the issue if you specifically turn a blind eye to such behavior. Because by accepting litter on the streets, Americans are tacitly accepting littering. And by ignoring no-gaijin signs, you are tacitly accepting racist attitudes as being fine.

Originally Posted by 羽之助

I think people are forgetting that racism is part of Western culture too. Go back in time just half a century and you'll find 'Whites Only' signs in the American South (and other places) and 'No Japs or Chinamen' in the Canadian Pacific. And did everyone get in a snit? Nope. Most white people just said ho-hum and went about their business, and if they were really upset about all the gaijin coming in they could join the White Canada Society or the Asiatic Exclusion League. There were a few people who cried racism and discrimination but they were by the by ignored. Slowly, though, more and more gaijin kept on coming and started getting citizenship and demanding their rights, to the point that society said 'Hey! Guess what, they're right!' and began educational campaigns to change people's attitudes. Japan is at that point for North America fifty or a hundred years ago. Foreigners are coming in and getting citizenship and demanding their rights, and slowly the pressure is going to build up and change the social structure of Japan. So is racism and discrimination an intrinsic part of Japanese society that we should just grin and bear with? Only if you would do the same in the West.

But when those signs were up in America, there was outcry. And also, we do now look down on the people who just accepted the behavior. I don't think you can compare Japan now to America 50-100 years ago, because America was able to progress. In Japan, racism is ingrained into the culture, to destroy the accompanying racism is to largely destroy the culture (this is seen in the Jim Crow laws of the south, which were largely instituted to maintain the south's cultural identity. It just so happened that that cultural identity said it was ok to lynch blacks).

Originally Posted by Xenotrauma

I wouldn't say nowhere.. I feel like I've learned a lot from this thread. Understanding perspectives is really important, especially when they seem so completely uncomprehendable

And yeah, I really do think it comes down to personal offense... like I said a few posts up, it's because we see differences in the degree of crimes. Japan doesn't see discrimination in the same "evil" light that we see it in, if they even see it as bad at all... so a comparison to another random offense might seem justifiable.

I think Hane had it right when he said "Foreigners are coming in and getting citizenship and demanding their rights, and slowly the pressure is going to build up and change the social structure of Japan." Racism isn't met with hostility or seen as something that needs to be dealt with, because up until recently (if you can even make the argument that it is NOW), it hasn't been an issue for the Japanese.

I wouldn't assume, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear a Japanese say something like "Racism is an American/European problem", because until it's a major economic or political issue... like it turned into in America... they'll just keep sweeping it under the rug. Not turning a blind eye really... but like you said, the metaphorical torch just isn't burning bright enough for anyone to NOTICE.

I don't see the social structure changing much in Japan, because the foreigners make up so little of the population, and for most it's easier to just leave than to try to work within a system where you are obvously not wanted, and everything is stacked against you.

I do agree that many Japanese people would probably feel that racism is only an American/European problem, because to them (it seems) it's not a PROBLEM in Japan. In Japan racism is perfectly ok, it's those other crazy places with notions of "equality" where it's a problem (unless of course it's a Japanese who faces discrimination, then it's a HUGE problem). I think the poster who said the reason Japanese don't care about no-gaijin signs is because they doesn't affect Japanese people is spot-on correct.

[Chinpokomon]

You know, the reason Rika might not remember seeing any "Japanese Only" signs is because they might not have been there for her to notice.

The only ones I've heard of have been next to US bases. Granted, I haven't spent that much time in Japan, but I don't think the signs are a widespread thing.

[羽之助]

Originally Posted by alansmithee

I don't see the social structure changing much in Japan, because the foreigners make up so little of the population, and for most it's easier to just leave than to try to work within a system where you are obvously not wanted, and everything is stacked against you.

Ah, but they will come if the economic system is better here than in their home countries, which is why so many people from Brazil and Peru come to work in the Japanese factories. Because, despite the low wages and horrible discrimination, it's still better than they could do back home.
Also, this year the number of Japanese was officially less than it was last year, thus beginning the downward slide of an aging population coupled with a shrinking tax base of young workers. Japan will disappear unless things are made more attractive to immigrants, and as much as the government doesn't want to admit it, they still know about the problem.
Of course, judging by the age of the guy operating the bulldozer on the street near me, perhaps they will solve the pension problem by just working everyone to death.

[Frankey-eh]

Originally Posted by alansmithee

I think the idea that America is anywhere near the end to be greatly exaggerated. Too much business is still done here, and the dollar is still the most stable currency. And if America were somehow to massively decline (which is highly unlikely in the next 100 years), Japan certainly won't be the country to rise-India would be the most likely candidate.

Well...if you think America won't fall eventually, it's your loss. I know Japan won't be at the top of the food chain. Probably China will. But I can't stand the environment there. So better Japan, which is four hour away, than US, which is fourteen hours away, right?

And also, which morals/ethics in America do you not agree with? I would be interested to hear what things someone from Japan finds wrong with American culture.

…well, thanks to my optimistic personality, I see everything as “it just is”. I just accept everything without giving it a second thought. If my parents complain about certain things wrong with US, I just suck it all up. If my friends complain about certain things wrong with Asia, I suck it up too. Sorry I can't help you.

And Chinpokomon is right. This problem is not as widespread. I know a girl who lived in US base in Yokohama who still claims she had a great time and everyone accepted her and she was “in-group”. She had an American name too. I’m not the only one with luck. ^^

Originally Posted by 羽之助

Ah, but they will come if the economic system is better here than in their home countries, which is why so many people from Brazil and Peru come to work in the Japanese factories. Because, despite the low wages and horrible discrimination, it's still better than they could do back home.
Also, this year the number of Japanese was officially less than it was last year, thus beginning the downward slide of an aging population coupled with a shrinking tax base of young workers. Japan will disappear unless things are made more attractive to immigrants, and as much as the government doesn't want to admit it, they still know about the problem.
Of course, judging by the age of the guy operating the bulldozer on the street near me, perhaps they will solve the pension problem by just working everyone to death.

You are right, if the economic system is better, they will come. But I was talking mainly of higher educated immigrants. A higher level of education is increasingly needed for many industries.

This is actually a growing problem in Europe. There was recently (about a month) an article in the Wall Street Journal about this issue in Europe. But in Europe oddly enough, the problem is a bit too much equality in the system. America gets more highly educated immigrants (according to official figures, approx. 30% of US immigrants have a college education, compared with around 15% for countries like Germany and France). Because their social programs are so generous, but there isn't the really high-end opportunities (relative to America at least), they attract more uneducated, low-skill labor immigrants. Basically, America's seeming economic gap is what makes higher skilled immigrants so attracted to America. But these are the people that Japan would be hard-pressed to attract, simply because being in high demand, there are many other countries where their skills would be more appreciated, and they can fit into society much easier. Alternately, being higher skilled, they can also choose to just stay in their native countries (which is becoming increasingly common for Indians, one of the reasons I think they have more opportunity for lasting growth than China). But as you said, I guess Japan could just abolish retirement alltogether, it sounds like it would be the more "Japanese" solution, rather than dealing with that silly 'equality' stuff .

Originally Posted by rika

Well...if you think America won't fall eventually, it's your loss. I know Japan won't be at the top of the food chain. Probably China will. But I can't stand the environment there. So better Japan, which is four hour away, than US, which is fourteen hours away, right?

How is it my loss? Anyone with any understanding of economics can see that America's "downfall" is greatly exaggerated. America (and Europe, to a lesser extent) support the current growth of the export-focused economies (mainly China) Also, the reason China isn't a prime candidate for being the next top dog, despite their current growth, is because their economic system has too many internal contradictions. They will either have to switch toward a more import-focused economy (as Western nations have when they developed their economies past a certain level), or they will collapse as increasing technology eliminates their current labor advantage. Their markets are also too protected for lasting growth-this is the very thing that helped to cause the Japanese economic downturn of the '90's. Also, if China puts too much pressure on the rest of the world by manipulating their currency and dumping cheap goods, they might force protectivist activites by their trading partners, which would be devastating.

I know it's nice to think of your home countries eventually dominating the dirty, immoral gaijin, but a rational look at the situation wouldn't give that conclusion.

…well, thanks to my optimistic personality, I see everything as “it just is”. I just accept everything without giving it a second thought. If my parents complain about certain things wrong with US, I just suck it all up. If my friends complain about certain things wrong with Asia, I suck it up too. Sorry I can't help you.

But didn't you say it was the bad moral/ethical climate of the US that would cause you not to want to live here permanently? Apparently you aren't accepting of everything, or you would have no preference for living in either place. There's apparently something you find deeply wrong with the US to not want to live here. We always hear about what Americans find bad about Japan, I was hoping to get the opposing view.

And Chinpokomon is right. This problem is not as widespread. I know a girl who lived in US base in Yokohama who still claims she had a great time and everyone accepted her and she was “in-group”. She had an American name too. I’m not the only one with luck. ^^

I don't think the areas around the naval bases are exactly typical, as they have a much higher concentration of foreigners. And I doubt if she had left the area, if she would be as welcome.

Again, I think if you are content to remain at a certain level, you will be fine. But as a foreigner in Japan, you have to accept the fact that you will always be outside. The hive mind doesn't accept new applicants.